Re: [linux-audio-user] My rant on toolkits.. :)

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006, Michelle Konzack wrote:

>> Concerning audio apps, we have seen so many improvements during the last
>> three years that I want to ask you: What are you missing?
>
> A new version of Rosegarden which does not force me, to install 86 MB
> of KDE-B...S... I hate KDE and GNOME. Thesae are gadgets and nothing
> more. Hardly to maintain and stop me from productiv works.

I never met a window manager I didn't like. Really! I change window
managers every several months just for a change. But you're right about
KDE and Gnome apps (real Gnome apps that is, not just GTK apps): They
don't just load toolkit libraries, they launch DAEMONS...which is very
annoying when you're not already running their actual desktop. Yes,
running them will work, we all know that. But it's still annoying as
you say to see dcopserver and gconfd and all that other business getting
launched just for the sake of an app.

As for the actual toolkit libraries themselves, that part never bothered
me near as much. I have no problem at all with running apps that use
libraries from QT, GTK, OpenLook, Motif, Tcl/Tk, Athena Widgets, raw
xlib calls, GnuStep, Windows GDI under Wine, Amiga Workbench under UAE,
and whatever else I can find all on one desktop. Actually, it feels
rather cool even being able to do that. The memory usage of the actual
toolkits only comes to a few megabytes each, unless we're talking about
the aforementioned KDE and Gnome ones, whose apps trigger the launch of
DAEMONS. So I've never understood the obsession with getting Linux
under just one toolkit from the memory usage angle. As for the cosmetic
side of it, hey, I've seen what a desktop looks like when *every single
app* conforms to a particular look and feel, and has the same color
palette, and the same buttons and menu pulldowns, and font settings, and
truly it makes me want to hurl. I realize there's a potential for some
programs to clash with eachothers' appearance if that's not enforced,
but I'll take that risk any day over the utter boredom of having five
dozen desktop apps that all look visually indistinguishable. <yawn>

Nonetheless, it seems that during the last several years, there's been a
big push in Linux to get everything onto one GUI toolkit, citing memory
reasons (ha!) and cosmetic conformity reasons (ick). Since both KDE and
Gnome both have no shortage of diehard supporters, in practice, this has
turned out to be a push to get everything onto *TWO* toolkits, QT and
GTK, but it's still a push to conform. Consequently, almost all new
Unix apps (even some ones not even made specifically for Linux) are GTK,
and the few that aren't are mostly QT. (The GTK ones aren't so bad when
they're not actual Gnome apps, since they don't necessarily launch
daemons like gconfd. QT apps invariably *do* launch KDE daemons.)
Programs based on anything else -- Motif/Lesstif, OpenLook, GnuStep,
Tcl/Tk, Athena Widgets, etc. -- are getting dropped from some distro's
package pools just for not being GTK or QT.

And *some* apps -- bringing this back to the original subject -- like
Rosegarden, Snd, X-CD-Roast, the 'make xconfig' interface for
configuring the Linux kernel, etc. -- are evolving into GTK or QT
programs where they originally weren't before. I actually liked what
most of these programs looked like before. I never wanted a desktop
that made every single program look the same. (In particular, I thought
Rosegarden version 2 looked just fine, not that it isn't also pretty now
as a KDE app.) Everything has got to be KDE or Gnome now.

If I had to make a choice, I'd want the apps to be Gnome even though I
use the KDE desktop more. Why? Gnome apps launch fewer daemons when
started outside their native environment, and straight GTK apps don't
start any. I don't think I've ever seen a QT app that didn't insist on
half the KDE infrastructure running in the background before it will
whistle a tune. (KDE apps also tend to be *very* noisy on their stderr
output...look at ~/.xsession-errors sometime while running any QT app,
or in an xterm one is launched from...yuck.)

> I was switching 03/1999 from MS Windows to Debian GNU/Linux from one
> day to another. Yes it was THE HELL!!! No real documentation and not
> realy much software, but Netscape and StarOffice and my lovely fvwm
> went working fine...

My favorite to this day is still FVWM customized nicely running with the
XFCE toolbar. Can't get a better replacement for CDE/Motif than that.
:) And it's nice and snappy, too.

-- 
+ Brent A. Busby,   UNIX Systems Admin	 +   "It's like being	+
+ James Franck / Enrico Fermi Institute	 +    blindsided by a	+
+     The University of Chicago		 +    flying dwarf..."	+