Subject: Re: Behringer [was Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: [linux-audio-dev] RME is no more]
From: Marek Peteraj (marpet_AT_naex.sk)
Date: Sun Nov 28 2004 - 17:48:05 EET
On Sun, 2004-11-28 at 14:03, tim hall wrote:
> Last Saturday 27 November 2004 21:36, Lee Revell was like:
> > On Sat, 2004-11-27 at 15:43 -0500, Lee Revell wrote:
> > > > Did this happen?
> > >
> > > Maybe not to them but look at Mackie and Behringer.
> >
> > Just to save people some googling here is a thread that documents the
> > long and colorful history of pro audio hardware manufacturers blatantly
> > ripping each other off, often leaving the victims with no legal
> > recourse:
> >
> > http://homerecording.com/bbs/archive/index.php/t-74439.html
> >
> > IMO the issue is not whether RME's concern is valid - clearly it is.
> > Sorry, but arguing otherwise makes us look stupid and naive. The issue
> > is how to address this concern. If that means a closed source Linux
> > driver, fine.
> >
> > Maybe the reason no firewire hardware is supported is because Behringer
> > and their ilk would instantly have all the info they need to copy the
> > design and mass produce it. Doesn't matter how cheap the device is to
> > design - it will _always_ be cheaper to rip someone off than design it
> > yourself. They can even sell at a loss, due to huge cash reserves -
> > they only need to sustain it long enough to put the competition out of
> > business. In the case of the "Swizz Army Tuner", the original designers
> > were ripped off by Behringer, but a lawsuit would have bankrupted them
> > _even if they won_ so could not take action.
> >
> > I think many people in this thread underestimate how cutthroat the
> > hardware business is.
>
> Yeah, If I was the MD of RME, after reading some of the responses on this
> thread I'd be thinking of flippin' the bird at all these ungrateful linux
> users.
I think it's about defending the position of open source and its nature.
And the work that people do here no matter whether for fun or not.
>From now on every company that doesn't do it like audioscience does, is
a plain loser to me, no matter whether they provide specs or not. It's
because other people do the actual work + support providing.
If MacOSX can have them, so can we, we have a greater marketshare.
Why the heck should we *always* understand them? Why can't they
understand *us*?
> We're a minority group and I think the onus is on us to convince RME
> to produce a driver for their firewire hardware, politely and if necessary,
> via the florists ;-). OK, so closed-source drivers are far from ideal, but
> better than a hole in the head.
If they can, who can't? I can't see the difference, can anyone explain?
>
> It means that the drivers can't be bundled with distros and we won't be able
> to provide users & developers with technical support, which is a great shame.
>
> However, I suspect a certain amount of well-reasoned persistence will pay off
> here. Sure, our numbers on this list aren't great, but they are significant.
There are many audio hw customers outside of this list (see CK's post
for example, or judging form experience - somewhere on #gnome talking
about rme ;) plus tons of talks on #lad - Q: "hi, what's the best card
for audio under linux? A: "rme or if you don't have that much money,
maudio")
>
> OK, _very_ few people are using firewire technology for music, up till now I'd
> considered it the preserve of mac/motu users.
I think a majority of pc based audio hw will be fw based in the near
future. Every manufacturer will have at least one product. Scary.
> I think we should continue to
> support RME where licenses allow and look forward to the day that they
> release their firewire drivers :-).
That is going to be the day their hw becomes redundant on the market? Or
even discontinued? That's the problem i'm seeing.
> I think we should keep up the pressure on
> manufacturers like MOTU too. They'll see sense eventually. ;-]
I doubt it. They have their own sw products, like the DP. In their case
i can pretty much understand why they don't do that if they see linux
audio as a competition.
>
> Mine is an equally naive viewpoint, but with the knowledge that a little bit
> of positive thinking can go a long way, especially when backed up with a
> well-researched wish-list and plenty of patience.
2 years korg and now this. Trust me it's not possible to cope with that
for a long time :)
Marek
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