Re: [LAD] Fwd: Fw: Re: At the hands of Professor Keller and Raymond

Raymond might be right or wrong.

I remember some mails were people recommended Raymond to be cool, even
if Bob might be wrong. I wonder why people now can't be cool, while they
guess Raymond is wrong!

So, even if Raymond should be wrong, why do you now blame him? Aren't
you able to follow you own recommendation you gave Raymond before?

You should be able to empathize Bob's emotions, if not you are just (a)
liar(s)!

My personal opinion is to see what will happen in the future. Bob should
get a chance and it doesn't matter if he had chances before or not, at
the same time I can't see any reason to blame Raymond.

There's a film with Spencer Tracy, the protagonist played by Spencer
Tracy said, that people should use any popular word that can be
understood by everyone, because there are too less words that can be
understood by everyone. Talking about a allegedly wrong chose of used
words is stupid. The fact is, that Bob ignored the GPL, another fact
seems to be that he's willing to consider with the GPL.

Is there any reason to blame anybody now? Even if somebody should be
wrong in your opinions, why can't you keep cool?

You recommended it Raymond before ...

!
Ralf

laseray@email-addr-hidden wrote:
> On Tuesday 28 July 2009 09:57:55 you wrote:
>
>> I'm not taking sides here, but there's also something to keep in mind.
>>
>> The GPL isn't a tool to beat people around the head with. And here,
>> probably more than any other GPL based community, there's a lot of
>> knowhow, and experience, in dealing with GPL matters. Sometimes things
>> get out of hand, but there's enough sane voices to bring some degree
>> of reason to the discussion.
>>
>
> GPL legal defender organizations disagree. They know more about it than
> you or I.
>
>
>> From what's been posted, it seems the original author may not have
>> been aware of the GPL and its important implications. Up until 18
>> months ago, i never knew it existed, and after only after my adventure
>> in Linux and opensource began, did it sit down and take in what it
>> means. It's not to be taken lightly, and for whatever reason, an
>> author of an application or code may want to reflect for some time,
>> before taking the plunge or not.
>>
>
> More irrelevant information.
>
>
>> Forking a project is by it's nature, and GPL "rights" aside, quite an
>> impact on the author. He or she may have been sweating over their code
>> base for some time, and i don't think anyone could say they wouldn't
>> feel a bit awkward if they saw their code being forked, and developed
>> further. Even more so for those who may not have developed their code
>> under the assumption of GPL. From an "outsider's" point of view, it
>> would seem like a big decision to take both ways, if both parties have
>> any sort of empathy.
>>
>
> Irrelevant.
>
>
>> You seem to be legally correct in the position you've taken, so no
>> argument there.
>>
>> From a human communication point of view, i would dare say most
>> authors would feel a bit put out by your manner, and the enthusiasm
>> with which you've gleefully "grabbed" the code, and waved the GPL
>> flag. It certainly looks that way from here.
>>
>
> Too bad. Your view, as well as that of others, is terribly skewed towards
> having nice words rather than truth. This is why many people are so easily
> manipulated, they consistently fall for these tactics. I don't.
>
>
>> I'm not throwing rocks at you, or as i wrote, taking sides. But waving
>> the license alone doesn't provide a "getout" clause to put aside basic
>> decent behaviour. If the author wasn't aware of the implications of
>> the GPL on his code, he certainly will be now, and maybe that's a good
>> thing. But the approach could have been handled differently. Maybe if
>> you'd taken the time and effort to explain what the GPL implied, then
>> the author, armed with this information, may have been more
>> forthcoming.
>>
>
> Already explained my position numbers of times, the reasons for this.
> When are you going to stop beating me over the head with this attitude
> BS. Get over it people. See the truth, the facts. Put everything else aside.
> I have no obligation to be nice after the treatment I got.
>
> Wake up people. I am not going to be nice about this situation, no matter
> what anybody says. Been there, done that. Does not work. Finally hear
> my words.
>
>
>> you obviously wanted the code for this particular project, and wanted
>> it fairly certainly it seems.
>>
>> Verbally bludgeoning people into submission, and getting extremely
>> personal, to get your way, may not be the right approach.
>>
>
> It is the right approach here. Impro-Visor is now on SF. What part of
> results do you not understand?
>
> How long do you think it would have taken to get it up there if I were nice
> about everything? Less time. No way. That guy said he was going to have
> a new version out sometime last year, it did not happen. Recently, he
> put something out, with no source. There is no way to tell from what he
> did or said at that point when the source code would appear. My actions
> have lead to it being put up sooner.
>
> Actions speak louder than words.
>
> So, again, people wake up and see what has happened here. A real solid
> result has come about by means which some seem to oppose. The nice
> approach was taken in the past and there were no results. Wake up people.
> The more direct approach has resulted in something. If it were all up to you
> naysayers there would be no source code out there.
>
> So get with the program. Get over your needs for unnecessary niceness.
> Some people don't deserve niceness and this based on their behavior.
> The way my detractors keep acting makes me think they would never punish
> criminals when they break the law.
>
> It is really quite unrealistic to think that you can always get the results
> you want by being nice. Reality disagrees with this all over the place.
> Check your history, news, and so on. Do you people get out much or
> what? There are some people in the world that are not so nice, and
> they force you into a position where you must fight. So when you do
> have that unfortunate situation come about, win. It is better to win
> than be nice to abusers.
>
> Wake up people. Tune into reality, not some imaginary utopia of
> nice people all getting along. That is not the way things work in
> many situations. It is not the way it works in FOSS, GPL, Linux vs.
> Microsoft FUD, and on and on.
>
> Raymond
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Received on Tue Jul 28 20:15:06 2009