Subject: Re: [linux-audio-user] icky low level linux stuff
From: Rob Kudla (lau_AT_kudla.org)
Date: Sat Jul 27 2002 - 19:16:07 EEST
On Friday 26 July 2002 23:08, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
> Perhaps there should be another list for advice to less advanced users
> where we make the effort to get onto their level. This could help new
> users to feel more comfortable asking simple questions.
The only issues I would see with such a list are (a) often Linux experts
seem to lose interest in lists explicitly oriented towards newbies, since
it's a really one sided situation, and they languish; (b) if it actually
got promoted, there would be the usual spate of posts like "I CANT RECORD
AND PLAY BACK AT THE SAME TIME CAN SOMEONE HELP ME." "I HAVE NOT RECEIVED
AN ANSWER IN 4 HOURS DOES ANYONE KNOW THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION OR DOES
LINUX SUCK!!" and hilarity would ensue; (c) very often, the answer to a
lowest common denominator Linux audio question really is "That feature
isn't really ready for regular users yet. If you'd like to learn a lot
more about your system and be able to use that feature afterward, check
out the Linux Audio User archives and then think about joining up."
> This list was setup to give a forum to discussion for Linux audio users
> without cluttering the up the discusson on the devel list. I don't ever
> recall us making a decision to lower the level to LCD.
I don't think anyone's complained about the level of discussion on this
list, but I was wondering if anyone's taken any steps to enable typical
audio users who use other operating systems to use Linux as a platform
rather than as a DIY sort of experiment where you spend more time tweaking
it than making music. I think that's how the whole debate got started
(well, that and Joseph leaving and coming back.) My inquiry* was meant to
spark more of a meta discussion - not "how do we do it" but "how do we
make it unnecessary to do it."
More to the point, I was wondering if we'll be able to get past the point
of expecting new musically oriented users (not users of this list, but
users of Linux) to deal with the command line -- much less patch and
compile code (whether it's the kernel or the latest alpha-level sound card
driver.) I don't really think it's *possible* to have a dumbed down Linux
audio discussion list presently because the answer to most requests by
newbies would still fall under issue (c) above. So there's no point in
doing that right at this moment. But another passion of mine is getting
Linux into a state that's usable by a non-nerd, and while I've had some
success with that in corporate and generalized home settings, music is a
different story and will be for a little while yet.
I have been trying to run my own system like a non-geek for about a year
now. (It's much more difficult than you'd think -- not to use it as a
non-geek, but to use it as a non-geek after using the Unix command line
almost exclusively for 15 years.) I couldn't care less whether a
geek like myself can accomplish something. We can take care of ourselves
with a little googling generally. I want to know how to make it possible
for a user whom I actually care about - friends, family, clients - can
accomplish something, or not have to accomplish something because it
happens automagically.
I consider it a defeat whenever I have to rebuild an RPM much less compile
something from a tarball, even though I've been doing things like that for
my entire adult life, *because* it indicates I've fallen back on geek
habits. It is a sign that Linux Is Not Ready(tm) for the task at hand,
not that the task or its users aren't ready for Linux. I don't care how
"correct" the command line is to other longtime Linux users: the other 98%
of the world either considers the command line something out of the 70's
like disco and polyester, or doesn't want to know it exists at all. I
come into contact with that other 98% much morethan I do with other people
like myself.
In situations involving a compiler, someone coming from a Mac or Windows
experience is going to be dead in the water. Many distributions don't
even *install* a compiler if you select "Workstation" or "Desktop" mode
(or you're installing a REALLY desktop oriented distribution like Lycoris
or Lindows.) Thus it becomes a question of whether you want to steer the
list in a support direction ("Yeah, Linux is great for sound, here's how
you do that without ever touching the keyboard") or a "support" direction
("Yeah, I recorded a whole album under Linux. Now I hurt. Please hug
me!")
*The answer to my inquiry was that the low latency kernel patch never gets
accepted for various reasons, isn't kept up to date as a result, and so we
are stuck working around it until Demudi or its successor is ready for
prime time or a Mandrake or Suse decides to start incorporating it into
their own kernels, in case anyone wasn't watching. But this is an
interesting discussion and now it seems to be drawing actual newbies out
of the woodwork, which I count as a good thing.
Rob
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