Re: [LAU] [LAD] Linux Audio 2012: Is Linux Audio moving forward?

On Thu, October 11, 2012 11:11 am, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 3:21 AM, Patrick Shirkey wrote:
>
>>> Let me put it this way. I'm a musician who was drawn by some magic
>>> force to your landing page. I've looked at your pretty pictures or
>>> maybe listened to some music samples. What's my next step? Judging by
>>> what you said the next step for me would be to visit my Facebook page
>>> to see if
>>> any friends uploaded new cat pictures :)
>>
>> I don't see how you get to that conclusion.
>
> Because so far I've seen no trace of mentioning an interaction with
> visitors.
>
> Hence let me repeat my question: what's my next step?
>

We can make as many landing pages with a specific call to action that we
want. We can also just link directly to the content and information or
software that we want to promote. What do you want to promote? Choose a
subject and make a landing page, a video, a tutorial, whatever you want.

>>>> It works pretty well and we wouldn't be where we are now without it.
>>>
>>> And where are we exactly? Lemme see. We get this kind of discussions
>>> every third month or so. Is that a sure sign that we are anywhere? :)
>>
>> It's an ongoing discussion. So is Linux Kernel development. Are you
>> implying that kernel development is stalled too?
>
> Oh, we were getting along so well, and now you are using clumsy
> analogies. There is no doubt that the Linux kernel is doing well on
> servers and mobile devices. It has strong niches. What's the strong
> niche for Linux audio in terms of actual installations?
>
>>> Everything comes at a cost, one way or another.
>>
>> Did anyone pay you for your time?
>
> Of course. Don't *you* get a paycheck for a work that needs time to be
> done?
>

Not always. In fact these days a significant amount of my hours are not
paid for when I invoice. that is just the state of the global economy.

>> How much income are you relinquishing by
>> taking part in this discussion?
>
> A certain amount.
>
>> Perhaps you are actually investing your
>> time and resources so you can get a payback at a later date.
>
> Anything's possible.
>

If you are not participating because you see a potential ROI then you must
be in a position where you can waste your time.

>>> I'm not sure what exactly you mean by placing the word "competition"
>>> into quotes, but we are nowhere near to compete (with few exceptions).
>>
>> Speak for yourself. As a community Linux Audio has been competing for
>> the
>> past 15-20 years.
>
> ...and losing? :)
>

What exactly are we loosing? We are growing the community of users,
developers and producers. People are making more money now than ever even
in this shithouse economy.

> Let's talk in absolute numbers. How many albums have been produced,
> mixed and mastered entirely with free software in the last 12 months?
> How many of them are available via iTunes or even Magnatune?
>

I couldn't say. How about asking how many people are making an income from
using Linux as a production platform? Compare that to 5 years ago and then
10 years?

> What about soundtracks for BF's open movies? How did it happen that
> neither Jan Morgenstern nor Joram Letwory are using Linux?
>

The Blender guys have their own motives. Ton obviously gets on with his
sound guys and that makes his work more enjoyable. Also they are literally
just down the road from each other. Blender runs on all platforms. They
make no claims to support Linux. In fact the majority of Blender users are
run M$. It's certainly a very powerful open source tool but it is not the
only way to produce video with linux. I don't know why more people aren't
using xjadeo, kdenlive or LiVES. Lots of people seem to be productive with
avsynth too.

>> You have a very closed view of the community if you think that a few
>> people making some music in their spare time represents the Linux Audio
>> Community.
>
> I'm not sure how you came at this conclusion, so I couldn't possibly
> comment on that.
>
>>> Jeez, Patrick, it's not about us believing or not. It's about being
>>> able to show a professional-quality record here and now. And to show
>>> that producing it doesn't take any longer than producing it on Mac or
>>> Windows with proprietary software.
>>
>> We already have that. The number of people releasing work done with
>> Linux
>> Multimedia tools is constantly expanding.
>
> Stop right there :)
>
> I'm not questioning the availability of the records per se. Once
> again, I'm talking about _professional-grade_ recordings. Any kid who
> got himself Mixbus can export directly to soundcloud. Good for him.
> Will it stand a test by Bob Katz? Think again.
>

How many m$ and mac users are using their software to study the radio
frequency spectral domain throughout the universe or locate deep sea oil
and gas fields? How many medical researchers rely on Linux for advanced
cutting edge radio frequency measurement tools? How many businesses are
using Linux Audio Software for online streaming and broadcasting? How many
people are using Linux Audio tools to do high quality remastering and
audio restoration?

Making records to sell on itunes is a small part of the audio and
multimedia production industry.

> Yes, I know there are few studios that use Ardour. I've seen pictures
> at http://ardour.org/node/3248 (incidentally, what ever happened of
> MIS and Ron Parker?). How do I find those studios? How do I listen to
> what they do with free software?
>
> Paraphrasing Linus, talk is cheap, play me a record :)
>
>> Almost all major motion pictures are made with Linux these days.
>
> How does it relate to Linux audio?
>

If they can make the movies on Linux then there is no reason they cannot
make the sound tracks too.

>> I've heard music on the BBC that was made with Linux Audio tools.
>
> How do I verify that?
>

Listen to the BBC.

>> We have several audio and multimedia companies
>> that are very publicly making money from Linux software and hardware
>> running the Linux platform.
>
> Several against just how many?
>

Doesn't matter how many companies don't use Linux. It's the fact that
there are companies already making money from it that counts.

>>> The first question you get when you mention Ardour in a professional
>>> community is "OK, can you show me who's using it and what they do with
>>> it?" I like that you are trying to meet that demand, but I'm not sure
>>> that it's going to work the way you want it to.
>>
>> The questions I have received are
>>
>> - q. What are the physical limitations ? a. very few.
>> - q. Does it support VST ? a. yes.
>
> -q. Will any of my VSTs run? a. it depends -- thanks, but no, thanks.
>
>> - q. What are Pauls rates for custom work and is he available ? a. I'll
>> ask him, he's generally a very responsive :-)
>> - q. Is Ardour the right solution for our goal? a. Maybe, what is it
>> you
>> are tying to achieve?
>
> Judging by the questions, you spoke to 3 persons, neither of which
> cared about support for his hardware :)
>

These are the questions that come up for me from professional audio
companies when we discuss Ardour.

> OK, granted, the VST question is the usual one. But not the others :)
>
>>> Probably I will never know what made MOTU so angry about Linux, but
>>> I'm quite prepared to believe that some fanatics had called them a big
>>> evil corporation, because they didn't see a market in Linux at the
>>> time. And seeing how often this kind of characteristic turns up even
>>> here, I'd say that part of the community needs a DNA fix.
>>>
>>
>> Most likely they got bribed more money not to release their drivers and
>> support Linux than they expected to received from sales.
>
> Oh, LOL. Conspiracy theories, how I missed you.
>
>> Of course this
>> just works in RME's favour so MOTU loose out in the long run by looking
>> like dicks to the global Linux Community which numbers in the millions
>> and
>> loosing customers to RME as everyone knows that RME products are high
>> quality and tend to work very well on Linux.
>
> You know, when I published the interview with FFADO and ALSA folks, I
> actually did a bit of research and plotted a chart from publicly
> available stats. Since you obviously have no idea, I suggest you just
> look at the numbers yourself:
>
> http://www.ffado.org/?q=usage/overtime
>
> Ye gods, over last 8 years (or so) MOTU lost whole 4K users out of
> those millions? What a horrible, unspeakable waste! :)
>
> </sarcasm>
>

How many people do you think actually own MOTU Devices? They target
professional industry not consumer hobbyists. 4000 professional
installations would be a reasonable share of the global market for their
products in the AV production industry. Nothing to be sniffed at. MOTU is
not Behringer. They target high end users not the entire mass market.

if each device brings in $1000 profit that is $4million in profit. Again
nothing to be ashamed of. What is Motu's market capital anyway? Do they
make more than $10 million a year in profit?

Lets say a company is aiming for $1 million in profit at $100 per sale.
That requires 10,000 users. Going by your stats above that means just by
targeting the market for firewire devices on Linux (a fraction of the
actual market base) they can potentially get to $400,000 in profit.

>> They also loose out on the association with Linux as a high end solution
>> which may not matter to their core market but definitely matters to the
>> Linux market.
>
> In other words, they lose on the association with a platform that a
> handful of people consider to be a platform for producing music
> professionally. Which is what their primary business is. Ts ts.
>

Lets read the numbers again and see if that is really such a small market.
A market with very little promotion and a small core of dedicated
individuals and businesses that have taken it this far already. A market
with an expanding community and burgeoning global awareness. A market
that can be built on a platform of the highest quality tools and software.
A market with a lot of room for growth. A platform that has been embraced
by the Film, Gaming, Scientific and Research industries.

What makes the Audio industry so special that it can ignore the direction
that other industries are moving?

--
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
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