Subject: Re: [linux-audio-user] Flash audio
From: RTaylor (ricktaylor_AT_speakeasy.net)
Date: Tue Sep 02 2003 - 10:13:53 EEST
On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 02:13:39 -0400
Rob <lau_AT_kudla.org> wrote:
> On Monday 01 September 2003 20:39, RTaylor wrote:
> > > When I see someone do something as nifty as the homestar or
> > > campchaos.com stuff using the hodgepodge of tools and
> > > formats you're describing, I'll believe that.
> > I'm describing some pretty competent commercial tools. From
> > both sides of the linux wall. You didn't check any of those
> > links did you?
>
> I found out that the Corel thing you're espousing doesn't even
> *support* sound. Are you sure you didn't mean to pitch this
> thing as a PDF replacement or something?
XML does. Or... "can". That's like saying that html doesn't
support sound. Do you really need someone to hold your hand?
Read this:
http://xml.coverpages.org/ni2003-07-25-a.html
It will give you a bit of insight.
> If you'd been to the links I mentioned, you'd know I'm talking
> about art ("content" if you would argue funny cartoons aren't
> art), not tools. All the bullet points and buzzword support in
> the world will not make a Strongbad video.
You and I see art slightly differently. I see valid art as something
that communicates something halfway worthwhile {Or just communicates}
This includes a lot of scientific and governmental web installations.
You don't need the "flash". Some art has even been done using 100% text.
Don't forget... the customer asked for slides.
> > What do you think's getting done with all of the software
> > that is capable of authoring SVG?
>
> I'm guessing a lot of nice corporate logos and other things for
> which people have been using metafiles over the last decade,
> since SVG is essentially the new CGM/WMF/EMF. That's certainly
> what Corel would like you to be doing.
You need to read the above... maybe go through Corel's manual.
Your viewpoint's far too narrow.
> For the third time I challenge you to show me some real world
> examples out there on the web, and when you do I'll go to the
> trouble of finding a Mandrake package of an SVG viewer. I did
> look for the Corel viewer and it appears to only be available
> for Windows.
:} Really? I've just used the SVG version of Mozilla... It seems
to work just fine. You really don't need any plugins. You do
have to unzip the thing.
The point was it's not all that difficult. to get a viewer.
> If it's not yet practical to do an engaging, rich, multimedia
> presentation in an SVG file yet, just say so. (And don't forget
> that the title of this thread is "Flash audio" and we're
> speaking on a list called "linux-audio-user". That is to say,
> don't skimp on the music and sound effects.)
Then you need to look at helix sound stuff at real.com. {Tho'
even MS seems to have some stuff up.}
Don't forget that svg is a vector format... you make drawings
with it {Tho' it does go a bit beyond that.} In order to do
multimedia you need to use smil and XML. {Tho' it looks as
though the new spec will change that.} It's all part
of one big package. The reason you use a standard is so that
the whole mess holds together... gotta' insure compatibility.
You can write svg with a largish percent of the drawing programs
out there.
> > I doubt many folk out there give a damn what extension's
> > attached to their file.
>
> They do when they have a choice between "sbemail047.swf" and
> "sbemail047.svg", "assets/sbemail047-01.mp3",
> "assets/sbemail047-02.mp3", "assets/sbemail047-03.mid",
> "assets/sbemail047-04.js", "assets/sbemail047-05.mp3", etc....
Why's that? The folk that are putting this spec together see the
whole web site as an application. {Possibly the entire web.}
SVG's just a part of it. If you want sound use an mp3 like god
intended.
> > As I said "most artists research their tools to a really high
> > degree {large extent, whatever}" {That that sort of thing's
>
> We have here two vector graphic formats. Both are freely
> available and documented with open specifications, yet for
> multimedia purposes, both require proprietary software both to
> create and to view them. One has been deemed worthy to kiss the
> W3C's ring, the other is already in use by at least 90% of those
> people browsing the web. That other one has also been mature
> about 5 years longer, its browser plugin is about 8 times
> smaller, it supports mp3 audio, synchronized and embedded in the
> same file, and enough interactivity that many, many people have
> written games using nothing but this other file format.
>
> As for the W3C's chosen format... well, you might be able to
> trigger some external mp3's using Javascript or something. And
> we heard there are some guys over there doing something with
> RealMedia and SMIL, maybe you could ask them to write some XML
> for you or something.
>
> Sometimes what's politically correct is just not artistically
> appropriate. Do you want your project to get headlines because
> it's brilliant, or because you made a silk purse out of a sow's
> ear?
>
> > gone out of favor in favor of "do only what the customer
> > requires" or "always follow the path of least resistance" is
>
> Yeah, yeah, true artists don't care about their audience, I know.
> Just the artists that ever *have* an audience.
Who told you that?
> > Rembrandt, Pollock, Ernst, DaVinci, TD, Puppy...
>
> You mention Tangerine Dream and Skinny Puppy a few times as
> apparent examples in support of your cause. The truth is, both
> artists chose to release their music in multiple formats so as
> to reach the widest possible audience, despite some of them
> being sonically and technically inferior to the others and
> despite some formats being encumbered by patents and other
> inconveniences. Even now, you can buy Tangerine Dream on
> tape... not because it's better, but because at the time certain
> of the albums were made, that was where the *biggest audience*
> was.
I mention them because they were electronic music pioneers that
made several silk purses.
You might take a look at Ernst and Davinci... maybe it will
further your understanding of "art".
> To summarize this thread: Neither Flash nor SVG allows the easy
> creation of multimedia presentations including audio, using free
> software or otherwise, under Linux. Both will cost you a lot of
> money to use in the first place and both have non-free browser
> plugins available, Flash currently reaches about 90% of the
> browsers out there, and SVG doesn't appear to have audio support
> at all.
Read the spec.
Follow a few links.
Plug some real audio files into your web site.
Go to this site which has links to all the information on SVG
that you'll ever need.
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